Good Afternoon
After a long hiatus I am back to this underused blog with a great topic. How do Lutherans understand Christ's real presence in communion.
After a long hiatus I am back to this underused blog with a great topic. How do Lutherans understand Christ's real presence in communion.
I am inviting comments in response to Stephan who wrote in a string at steadfastlutherans.com about decision theology about the way that Lutherans understand Christ presence in Communion and how that understanding is different tham transubstiation. Here's my response to Stephan.
Stefan
I am sure grateful to see this conversation continue. If you like we can continue on my underused blog unlikelybanter.blogspot.com or if one of the powers that be behind the Steadfast Lutheran's site is ready it might be continued here as well.
You ask if Lutheran's believe in transubtantiation. We don't; but we do believe that Jesus is present for us in the bread and wine just as he promised to be present.
I was raised as a Catholic and even attended a Catholic University for my undergraduate degree. I have always believed that Christ is present in communion, the difference between a belief in real presence and a belief in transubtation is in no small part how we accept the mystery of Jesus' presence in communion. Here's where Luther just makes more sense (at least for my simple brain) by letting the ambiguity be that others try to explain away through their doctrines of Transubstatiation. The Catholic belief in Transubstatiation, as I was taught it, is an attempt to logically explain a mystery of God coming into our midst.
Martin Luther was bold in saying yes Jesus is present; but he was equally bold in encouraging people to just let the mystery of God's presence stand
So against all reason and hairsplitting logic I hold that two diverse substances may well be, in reality and in name, one substance. These are my reasons: First, when we are dealing with the works and words of God, reason and all human wisdom must submit to being taken captive, as St. Paul teaches in II Corinthians 10[:5], must allow themselves to be blinded and led, directed, taught, and instructed, lest we presume to be God’s judges in his words, for we shall surely lose out when we try to judge him in his words as Psalm 50 [51:4] testifies.
Secondly, if we take ourselves captive to him and confess that we do not comprehend his words and works, we should be satisfied. We should speak of his works simply using his words as he has pronounced them for us and prescribed that we speak them after him, and not presume to use our own words as if they were better than his. Martin Luther, vol. 37, Luther's Works, Vol. 37 : Word and Sacrament III, ( ed. Jaroslav Jan Pelikan et al.;, Luther's Works Philadelphia: Fortress Press, 1999, c1961), Vol. 37, Page 296.
Thanks Stefan for this great discussion of one of the great mysteries of faith. I trust that God's Word is always fruitful and that you and I both may be strengthened in our trust of Christ through such great conversation.
Pax
John
6 comments:
Hi John!
Pax Brother! :-)
I have read the large catachism on the Sacraments and still not sure that Luther is saying the right thing here about it.
I agree about the institution of the Sacraments in that the bread and wine are to be taken in remembrance of what Jesus was going to do, but not too sure it is THE body and THE blood of Christ.
I will go a point at a time as that way it will be easier for this little brain of mine to follow things okay ;-)
If it was the body and the blood, then why the cross if the body is already broken and the blood already shed?
But of course it was not yet broken and not yet shed at that stage, so how could it be His body and His blood except symbolicaly?
Stefan
Stefan
I'm sorry for the slow reply. My life has been a bit turned over. My wife has chosen to separate and it's just been the most amazingly wonderful time to trust in God and the most difficult time to face her anger (much of it justified) at me.
I spent most of the weekend either at church or with my kids. I would appreciate your prayers for me, Siri, and our 3 girls. All of us are hurting pretty deeply right now.
I wanted to think about your questions a little.
You ask: "If it was the body and the blood, then why the cross if the body is already broken and the blood already shed?"
I worked for a year with an 80 year old pastor who was an interim senior pastor with me for one year. He said that one of the hardest things to understand is that God's "now" is eternal. He said God's "now" embraces all time. It's a question for me of God's ability to embrace all time. 2nd Corinthians 1:18-22 pushes me to see God's promises and recognize that His soveriegn power is the reason why every promise he makes is kept.
We can debate what exactly Jesus knew of his coming death. Jesus was, the next day, going to offer his body and blood one time for all. I believe Jesus was explaining what He, as God, knew was coming. He knew he would offer his life for the salvation of the world.
In John's Gospel there's no mention of the Words of institution; but there is a repeated theme of Jesus at Jesus saying, "I am" and one of the I am statements he makes is that "I am the bread of life." That statement was true before the cross and it's true after the resurrection. The mystery for me is how He's there in the bread and wine. I call it a mystery because I have no evidence other than his promise.
You ask, "But of course it was not yet broken and not yet shed at that stage, so how could it be His body and His blood except symbolicaly?"
I'm back dwelling in the reality of Jesus incarnation as a mystery. God comes to us and we remember at the same time that God keeps his promises. To me this is not an easy thing to understand but I see it happening in communion, and like I say I can't easily explain it. To me this is a point of faith that embraces Christ in this mysterious and wonderful presence.
thanks for the conversastion
Pax, John
John, I am so sorry to hear that about your wife and will be praying!
Until such time as the issue is resolved, I will desist from posting on this and other topics with you as you have far more pressing matters on hand!
May God be with your whole family John and may His peace guard everyones heart and mind.
Lots of love
Stefan
Stefan
If you are ever interested I keep a weekly scripture blog going. Please feel free to check it out unlikelyconversation.blogspot.com. I'm always eager for a different perspective on the Word than my own.
pax
John
I came across this site by accident. I will keep your family in my prayers.
I realize that you are not Catholic, but the answer to marital problems is simple: no contraception, which breaks the marriage bond, and the family Rosary. Every day. Without fail.
The Rosary meditations cover the incidents in the lives of Jesus, Mary, and Joseph, their sorrows and joys, the tragedies and the triumph.
The family Rosary, prayed well, can resolve all issues.
- DJR
DJR
thanks for the prayers. God's amazing listening ears have heard and blessed us in the past year. May you know the fullness of His blessings in your days
John
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